Education secretary Bridget Phillipson seemed unable to provide an answer after a trans woman quizzed her about where she’s allowed to go to the toilet.

During an interview with trans journalist and writer Izzy Dine, published online on Tuesday (21 October), the women and equalities minister was asked what bathroom she thought Dine and other trans women should currently be using.

In September, Phillipson, who is currently running the Labour deputy leadership candidacy, was handed the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s (EHRC) code of practice on single-sex services, which could result in a bathroom ban for trans people.

Changes to the code of practice were proposed in April following the FWS v Scottish Ministers Supreme Court ruling, which stipulated that the 2010 Equality Act’s definition of a woman referred to a ‘biological woman.’

Asked what bathroom trans women should currently be using, Phillipson appeared unable to give a clear answer, instead simply restating the ruling, the full impact of which remains unclear: “As Minister for Women and Equalities, I set out the policies responding to the Supreme Court judgement. The Supreme Court were clear that, uh, for the purposes of the Equality Act, sex is biological sex.

“What’s now happening is the Equality and Human Rights Commission have, uh, have consulted on a code of practice to me as the minister. I’ll then be going through that line by line to make sure we get that right. It’s a 300-page document so it will take some time.”

Dine then pointed to interim guidance from the EHRC, which included a clause banning trans women from men’s toilets as well as women’s. The guidance has since been repealed.

“You could have a situation where trans women can’t use the men or the women’s bathroom. I mean that seems kind of preposterous, right?” Dine asked.

Phillipson appeared to stumble over her words as she responded: “So, through the code of practice which the EHRC have submitted to me… that’s the means by which everyone has access to the services, the support, that they need. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect.

“Single-sex spaces are important but ideally we believe trans people should not be subjected to harassment or discrimination and trans people continue to retain protections under the Equality Act 2010, um, uh, and that is important.”

Phillipson continued that she wouldn’t want anyone to feel that they “don’t get the support or the services that they need” and pledged to set out the government’s position using the code of practice.

As if Phillipson didn’t appear uncomfortable enough, Dine finished with the question: “So am I going to have to use the men’s?”

Phillipson responded: “The code of practice will set out the way forward. We’re taking our time to go through that, but the Supreme Court judgement was clear that sex under the Equality Act means biological sex.”

Speaking to PinkNews, Dine said she knew “how rare of an opportunity” the interview was for a trans person.

“I’m not sure the government has ever actually been faced with a trans journalist asking questions about trans rights”, she said. “So I wanted the Equalities Minister to tell me to my face that I shouldn’t be able to use the women’s bathroom”.

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