California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) again attacked transgender rights in an interview with conservative podcaster Shawn Ryan, claiming that it’s not “homophobic” to oppose letting trans kids participate in school sports, all while refusing to refer to trans girls as girls.

Newsom discussed how he authorized marriages for same-sex couples when he was the mayor of San Francisco in 2004 and said that the national Democratic Party turned its back on him for doing so.

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Newsom praised the intent of the bills, but worried about their ambiguous nature and whether they followed the law.

“I completely, yeah, just crushed by my own party, outraged by what I had done,” he said in an interview released earlier this week. “So I assure you, this was not politically correct or just something, ‘Oh you’re from San Francisco.’ It was not supported back then. And I thought it was the right thing to do and I’m proud of that because I saw the human face.”

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He then contrasted the “emotional intensity” he felt from that time when he authorized same-sex marriage to what he claimed is “unfair” demands being made by trans kids.

“When you get to the issues around sports, trans issues? That’s now no longer about celebrating your rights, it’s about denying other people theirs,” he said. “Marriage equality was about everyone’s right- Your marriage was not diminished because a couple who had been together 30 years got married and happened to be the same sex. But your child may not have that same opportunity to get on the podium if a trans athlete is competing for that limited spot.”

He said that, two years ago, he believed that the right was “just exploiting” transphobia because there aren’t that many trans kids participating in school sports in the state. He said that there was a state track meet two years ago that changed his mind.

“We had a trans athlete that was successful and there was a video of the girl that lost and she was devastated,” he said. “And it was very emotional and it was very real, and you felt for the girl.”

“Man, that wasn’t fair,” he said, noting that both the trans athlete and “the girl” dropped out of their teams due to the media attention. He kept on referring to the cisgender girl as simply “the girl” while the transgender girl was the “transgender child,” implying that he only thinks that one of the two girls is a girl.

He then said that “progressively minded people – not bigots – that are champions of trans policy, like I am, but didn’t like the sports” started coming up to him and asking him to help ban trans girls from participating in school sports.

“Because you oppose sports does not make you a bigot, doesn’t make you homophobic,” Newsom insisted. “And my party needs to stop saying that.”

“The vast majority of people I come in contact with that think it’s unfair are good human beings.”

“Even support for marriage equality is declining now,” Newsom said, possibly referring to a recent Gallup Poll. “And I think this issue is really… They’ve been really effective weaponizing it, very effectively expressing their anger about it… and it’s hurting the broader movement.”

Ryan then asked if Newsom thinks that the “LGBTQ agenda went a little too far” and complained that gay people “just get pushed in my face all the time” and cited rainbow flags in corporate logos during Pride Month.

“Yeah,” Newsom responded.

Ryan claimed that blue states are letting authorities “take your kid if you’re against gender-affirming care,” something that is not true but has been a rightwing bogeyman for several years. Newsom didn’t disagree but instead dodged the question and rambled a bit about how many on the right have forgotten about the “humanity” of trans people.

“What about for your values, is eight-years-old too young?” Ryan asked, referring to transitioning. It’s unclear what Ryan or Newsom thought transitioning is like for kids that age, but it does not involve surgery. For pre-pubescent trans kids, social transitioning means letting a kid dress in the clothes they want to and referring to them with a name or pronouns they feel fit their gender identity.

“Yeah,” Newsom responded. “I mean, look, now that I have a nine-year-old, just became nine, come on man, I get it, so those are legit.”

He rambled on about politics for a while without answering the question and said that he doesn’t understand the science behind gender-affirming care but that he has met families who talked about how gender-affirming care saved their trans kids’ lives.

Ryan pressed him. “To make that big of a decision…” he said. “As a kid, you could also be destroying a lot of lives as well.”

“Look, I come to this very much more open-minded than I’ve ever been, more receptive,” Newsom responded before going back to talking about sports. He then said that he supports laws banning discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, even though that was not the topic.

“That said, on the issue of children, this is a tough, tough issue,” he concluded.

The relevant conversation starts at around the 2:39 mark in the video below.

This isn’t the first time Newsom has said that he opposes trans girls having an equal right to sports education in schools. He told rightwing activist Charlie Kirk in March that it’s “an issue of fairness” and that it’s “deeply unfair” that trans girls get an equal opportunity.

“He brought it up,” Newsom told Ryan about that conversation with Kirk. “He said, ‘Tell me that’s not fair!’ and I said, ‘It’s not fair, you’re right!'”

California passed a law in 2013 allowing trans girls to participate in school sports, so the state has not complied with the current presidential administration’s attempts to get it to ban trans girls from school sports, and the Department of Justice is suing the state over the matter.

Newsom called that law a “challenge” in the interview with Ryan.

Newsom claimed that he has been talking to the president about the issue.

“He told me, ‘You got abortion, I got this,'” Newsom recounted. “He told me that…. Politics. Politics!”

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